Recap #cclivechat April 20, 2012

A chat not to forget! We discussed a difficult topic with a novel way to try and help the authorities catch the bad guys: child molesters.

Gary Lee Walters discussed having a database in which the backgrounds of child abuse images are filed and made available to the public in hopes that someone recognizes the background. It would help the cops find locations, networks, etc. Hotel rooms looks eerie similar so the focus has to be on special items such as a bag on the floor, a book on a nightstand with a visible marking, or a painting that is not standard for hotels. It could be that the view through the window in the backgrounds rings a bell to someone or a handmade quilt reminds someone where they have seen it before.

Before the chat started, Gary had written down a foreword that I repeat here:

A foreword to the tweets on #cclivechat re #childabuseimages and database of backgrounds:

idea is public could access and advise authorities #cclivechat if they recognise it is not intended to be used as a vigilante exercise.

Images of child abuse are no doubt horrific wp.me/p1O76V-2F #cclivechat

the public’s help is needed to bring the perps to justice. It is a complex area. I do not have the answers, just suggestions #cclivechat

Tackling production of child abuse images has been attempted by statute notably since 1978 http://goo.gl/EZF1J PCA1978 #cclivechat

possession by s.160 Criminal Justice Act 1988 and the #cps give more detail here http://goo.gl/EZF1J  #cclivechat

The aforementioned deal only with indecent photographs and pseudo-photographs cont.. #cclivechat

Of course, other statutes are used to prosecute, for example drawings http://goo.gl/OLuXW  #cclivechat

the Obscene Publication Act 1959 http://goo.gl/Ft0A0  plays a big part, not to mention Sexual Offences Act 2003 http://goo.gl/lnjxb   #cclivechat

All that said (!) we are concentrating on the background from these obscene images #cclivechat

For example (from my understanding) see above (from Office online, © free license) #cclivechat

Finally, the statistical information for convictions is notoriously difficult to analyse. Offences relating to child abuse images are ‘mixed’ in with other acts #cclivechat

which is unhelpful to say the least, a single database relating to the prosecution of child abuse images would assist with analysing and assessing trends #cclivechat

We went over design and format and also, how to categorize those backgrounds. Richard Case and Sue Carney already had some experiences to share.

The chat also showed different lines of thinking between cops and lawyers. Kathleen and I agree that child molesters have to get off the streets ASAP. However, it has to be done within a legal frame work. It was interesting to see crime control versus protecting people’s rights as far as wrong identifications or “guilt by association” was involved.

Our friends from Canada gave us this link with an interesting article to read. “The same year, Winnipeg police reviewed a 14-minute video that involved the abuse of two young girls and noticed several clues. They heard a radio station’s call letters, saw tattoos on the abuser and noticed a 1996 U.S. election poster. Winnipeg police notified the U.S. Customs Service International Child Pornography Investigation and Coordination Center, which traced the radio station to Connecticut.”

Gary added this link as well.

A terrific chat and yes, Gary will be back for more! The verbatim thread is below.

V

legalacademiaA foreword to the tweets on #cclivechat re #childabuseimages and database of backgrounds with @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:53:09 +0000
legalacademiaidea is public could access and advise authorities if they recognise it is not intended to be used.. #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:54:29 +0000
legalacademia[not to be used] as a vigilante exercise Images of child abuse are no doubt horrific http://t.co/JQ6O5yw5 #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:55:08 +0000
legalacademiathe public’s help is needed . It is a complex area. I do not have the answers, just suggestions #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:56:23 +0000
legalacademiaTackling production of childabuseimages has been attempted by statute notably since 1978 http://t.co/hDlYp1l6 PCA1978 #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:57:31 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia: the public’s help is needed . It is a complex area. I do not have the answers, just suggestions #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:57:41 +0000
legalacademiapossession by s.160 Criminal Justice Act 1988 and the #cps give more detail here http://t.co/hDlYp1l6 #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:57:52 +0000
legalacademiaThe aforementioned deal only with indecent photographs and pseudo-photographs cont.. #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:58:24 +0000
legalacademiaOf course, other statutes are used to prosecute, for example drawings http://t.co/u9QZI0Yz #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:58:55 +0000
legalacademiathe Obscene Publication Act 1959 http://t.co/LIwiQ4TW plays a big part, not to mention Sexual Offences Act 2003 #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 15:59:42 +0000
Vidocq_CCIt is noon and this #cclivechat is a brainstorming session with @legalacademia on child abuse and more! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:00:01 +0000
Vidocq_CCFirst of all a HUGE thank you to Gary Lee Walters for doing this for us. Gary, welcome to the Chat! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:00:35 +0000
legalacademiahttp://t.co/DRJkqv11 that said (!) we are concentrating on the BACKGROUND from these obscene images RE #COLDCASES #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:00:36 +0000
legalacademiaFor example (from my understanding) see attached (from Office online, © free license) #cclivechat @Vidocq_CC http://t.co/S0hPIoY6Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:01:15 +0000
legalacademiaFinally, the statistical information for convictions is notoriously difficult to analyse. #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:01:44 +0000
legalacademiaOffences relating to child abuse images are ‘mixed’ in with other acts which is unhelpful to say the least #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:02:08 +0000
legalacademiaa single database relating to the prosecution of child abuse images would assist with analysing and assessing trends #cclivechat @Vidocq_CCFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:02:29 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC done! bring on the session :) #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:02:56 +0000
Vidocq_CCI think such a database is a good start to tackle this issue from a different perspective. How did this come about? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:03:43 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: It is noon and this #cclivechat is a brainstorming session with @legalacademia on child abuse and more! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:04:07 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: First of all a HUGE thank you to Gary Lee Walters for doing this for us. Gary, welcome to the Chat! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:04:14 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC it is my understanding it has been considered for some time (years) creating such is proving difficult for @CEOPUK #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:05:34 +0000
LilacLoungeGood afternoon #cclivechat folk :)Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:05:59 +0000
Vidocq_CC@LilacLounge Hi Sue! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:06:24 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge afternoon! #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:06:25 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia How did you start to explore this topic? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:06:58 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC @LilacLounge attached is the image which is an example background #cclivechat http://t.co/b3eZnTnhFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:07:24 +0000
McGrathCarl@Vidocq_CC Hi everyone first visit for me on my lunch break #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:07:41 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia: @Vidocq_CC @LilacLounge attached is the image which is an example background #cclivechat http://t.co/EbBKcdP9 #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:08:04 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC during my undergraduate studies i was drawn to the work others would not do! SOA etc #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:08:25 +0000
Vidocq_CC@McGrathCarl Very welcome, my friend! We discuss making a database of the background displayed in pics re child abuse #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:08:47 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC and i was discouraged from writing a dissertation on child abuse images as the university were not 'keen' #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:09:08 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC so once i did my diss on rape,i moved on to the area of child abuse images as like rape (and these children are raped)#cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:10:09 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Very glad you were not discouraged to keep working on those topics after your uni years! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:10:32 +0000
LilacLounge@legalacademia so such images, what features would be recorded in a database? How much detail is documented? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:10:41 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC as it is a topic few tackle- but it needs more to understnad it and tackle the problem although it is tough at times #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:11:09 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Correct, it is rape. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:11:14 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia It is heartbreaking, Gary. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:12:50 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge @Vidocq_CC from my understanding (and im not privy to the whole issue as it is a protected area) unique features #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:13:05 +0000
LilacLounge@legalacademia ...& have built databases to record many casework & forensic details of sexual offence cases #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:13:56 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge @Vidocq_CC so for example, a picture frame with a unique painting, or ltd edition printA bedside table with a cert' #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:13:58 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia from my understanding (and im not privy to the whole issue as it is a protected area) unique features #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:15:04 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge @Vidocq_CC this is interesting, we ought to talk more about that #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:15:05 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia: so for example, a picture frame with a unique painting, or ltd edition printA bedside table with a cert #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:15:19 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 Hi Kathleen! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:15:31 +0000
LilacLounge@Vidocq_CC I think the database would have to be v carefully designed to allow ease of searching. Not straightforward! #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:15:38 +0000
legalacademiavery welcome @katcop13 @Vidocq_CC @LilacLounge #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:15:46 +0000
LilacLounge@Vidocq_CC There will always be unusual things that don't fit into your 'categories' of info to record #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:16:10 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Agreed, are there focus groups who have looked at such a database? Their reactions? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:16:22 +0000
Vidocq_CC@LilacLounge Agreed, would need clear indexing by location, objects, art, antique, etc. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:16:49 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC potentially yes. part of the background could be a view out of a window- that could include a reg plate #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:17:01 +0000
LilacLounge@legalacademia Definitely! Would love to do that sometime, when you're not furiously typing responses to #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:17:25 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC there are, notably @CEOPUK and they were hoping to implement it via the govt but the UK govt are dragging their heels #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:18:01 +0000
Vidocq_CC@LilacLounge As long as you two keep me posted! cc @legalacademia #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:18:23 +0000
LilacLounge@legalacademia are image enhancement techniques used to make details of backgrounds clearer? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:18:33 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge and i have RSI! #ouch #cclivechat But yes, offline indeedFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:18:40 +0000
legalacademia@McGrathCarl thank you I will take a look #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:18:55 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Does such a database exist in other countries? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:19:00 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC @LilacLounge of course #projectinthemaking #cclivechat ;)Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:19:25 +0000
bischofield@Vidocq_CC #cclivechat I am here and interested, but don't have enough (which means nil) knowledge to participate. Thanks all.Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:19:36 +0000
Vidocq_CC@McGrathCarl @legalacademia You need to use the hashtag #cclivechat in every tweet or else the others do not see your tweets.Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:19:55 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge they are but it depends on the quality of the pixel in the first instance. e.g 'desmudging' can only do so much #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:20:23 +0000
Vidocq_CC@bischofield Brenda, you have more knowledge than you think! Would you help the cops solve cases of child abuse by 1/2 #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:21:12 +0000
Vidocq_CC@bischofield looking at backgrounds of child abuse images? The abuse is backed out, of course. Backgrounds might be familiar. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:21:52 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge and defence would say it is not 100%, so reasonable doubt could mean diff for jury to convict #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:22:30 +0000
legalacademiaUnsure - *throws it out there* RT @Vidocq_CC: @legalacademia Does such a database exist in other countries? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:23:10 +0000
Vidocq_CCPersonally, I would help the cops and look at those backgrounds to see if it triggered anything in my memory. I have worked 1/2 #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:23:13 +0000
Vidocq_CCwith abused children and their cases are part of my nightmares 2/2. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:23:34 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge @Vidocq_CC It would be hard to categorize eg 'sporting memorabilia' ?Trophy's in background that are recognizable? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:25:03 +0000
Vidocq_CCHave any conference taken palce on this subject? What is the general feel? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:25:27 +0000
legalacademia@katcop13 this is exactly what @CEOPUK are suggesting. Public help is needed to view and review backgrounds, to sift #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:25:59 +0000
Vidocq_CCI meant "taking place" in last tweet, sorry! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:27:05 +0000
legalacademia@katcop13 see my small blog on it here with comment by @mwilliamsthomas http://t.co/JQ6O5yw5 #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:27:25 +0000
Vidocq_CC@Rangeeni @bischofield Use hashtag #cclivechat so the others can see your tweets as well.Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:28:06 +0000
katcop13I'm a retired police officer; I worked in Crime Stoppers for 13 of my 21 yrs. The public can be a huge help...Thx for link #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:28:25 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC it is a sensitive area-no doubt it has been discussed but is a new concept.Probably discussed more in closed qtrs #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:28:39 +0000
TrickyCase@Vidocq_CC I am here for #cclivechat but restricted by smartphone.. Just caught up with conversationFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:29:11 +0000
McGrathCarl@legalacademia @katcop13 @mwilliamsthomas #cclivechat try this again http://t.co/FpDmDasP Canadian govt is committed to thisFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:29:52 +0000
LilacLounge@TrickyCase Afternoon Richard! :-) #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:29:54 +0000
bischofield#cclivechat Could be backgrounds not be used on Americas Most Wanted etc?Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:30:03 +0000
legalacademia@katcop13 i agree - many eyes make sifting cases far easier. Category of images is the hardest thus far I would say #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:30:10 +0000
Bopsterrrr@Vidocq_CC I'm also here for #cclivechat for the first time! Just been catching up. Don't really have the knowledge to comment though!Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:30:18 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @McGrathCarl: #cclivechat try this again http://t.co/zwhrGHyk Canadian govt is committed to this #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:31:09 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase hi Richard (interesting bio, duly followed) #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:31:11 +0000
Vidocq_CC@Vidocq_CC No problem, welcome! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:31:35 +0000
Vidocq_CC@TrickyCase Hi there! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:31:49 +0000
LilacLounge@Bopsterrrr brilliant! Glad you've made it! :-) Why not use the opportunity to ask questions. This is why we have #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:32:00 +0000
TrickyCase@legalacademia so Gary could you retweet my last tweet with #cclivechat ?Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:32:11 +0000
legalacademia@bischofield Hi - @CEOPUK have this http://t.co/zbHm5Ug8 the question is not can but when, all about funding #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:32:35 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge @Bopsterrrr all questions welcome #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:33:00 +0000
TrickyCase@Vidocq_CC @LilacLounge hi guys #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:33:13 +0000
legalacademia#cclivechat RT @TrickyCase: @legalacademia hi Gary, where would your database improve upon what a hashset database already does?Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:33:28 +0000
bischofield@legalacademia @CEOPUK Or on milk cartons etc as I believe they do with missing children in the States. #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:34:25 +0000
katcop13it's a catch-22, as info in sex offenses are confidential, but as long as the vic is not seen in the photo, it should be ok #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:34:49 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 What if abuse took place inside someone's home who sees background pic and feel the privacy of their home violated? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:35:56 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase The database which @CEOPUK wish to use is for public consumption, i.e for anyone to look at and assist with id #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:35:58 +0000
TrickyCase@legalacademia did you know that @Forensics_NPIA and @F21eForensics are helping develop a national hashset database #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:36:06 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase @Forensics_NPIA @F21eForensics maybe you ought to explain the hashset Richard? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:36:51 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia The database which @CEOPUK wish to use is for public consumption, i.e for anyone to look at and assist with id #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:36:58 +0000
katcop13Folks involved in chat should try TweetChat; enter the name of chat; it automatically adds it in & figures out character count #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:37:04 +0000
Vidocq_CCI use tweetchat because it lets me concentrate on only tweets with the desired hashtag! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:38:06 +0000
Bopsterrrr@TrickyCase @legalacademia @Forensics_NPIA @F21eForensics Could you explain a little more about this database? :) #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:38:19 +0000
TrickyCase@legalacademia @CEOPUK all you would need is the software to create the hashset code from the image for the public to use? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:38:36 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC @katcop13 this is a major problem.The perps are not necessarily using their own home then ppl may assume wrong perps #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:38:49 +0000
Vidocq_CCI am very interested in this database so if you wish, Gary, guest blog about this topic? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:39:08 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: I use tweetchat because it lets me concentrate on only tweets with the desired hashtag! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:39:09 +0000
katcop13@Vidocq_CC All bets are off when criminals are violating children ~ it's a crime scene. They are disseminating child porn. #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:39:53 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Correct, which offends and people will stop (or try to) project out of fear for association w/perps! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:39:54 +0000
LilacLounge@TrickyCase Has this database made use of the SCAS database to which the FSS previously contributed casework info? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:40:00 +0000
legalacademia@Bopsterrrr @TrickyCase @Forensics_NPIA @F21eForensics yes, its not technical as this would put off use by GP 1/2 #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:40:03 +0000
TrickyCase@Bopsterrrr @legalacademia @Forensics_NPIA @F21eForensics I'll try in 140 chars #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:40:16 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: I am very interested in this database so if you wish, Gary, guest blog about this topic? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:40:21 +0000
legalacademia@Bopsterrrr @TrickyCase it would, as i understand it, be something like attached #cclivechat http://t.co/oYZ9ktUkFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:40:46 +0000
katcop13@legalacademia Then the criminals allowing it to go on in their home should be charged as accessories~they don't deserve a break #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:41:17 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia @Bopsterrrr @TrickyCase it would as i understand, be something like attached #cclivechat http://t.co/Dl3dNWMW #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:41:49 +0000
TrickyCaseYou can use a code to turn an image into a unique set of numbers (hashset) that can then be searched against a database of ... #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:42:01 +0000
Bopsterrrr@legalacademia @TrickyCase #CCLIVECHAT Its a good idea, would there not be the issue of people not wanting to be associated with scene 1/2Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:42:17 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 But what if my place was used without me knowing? I still have a right to privacy, right? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:42:19 +0000
katcop13If/when DB of photos becomes avail to public, it will drive the child rapists to clear their backgrounds! #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:42:27 +0000
Bopsterrrr@legalacademia @TrickyCase #CCLIVECHAT if they recognise it as their home but they are not involved?Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:42:36 +0000
legalacademia@katcop13 what about those that are unaware? i.e uncle abusing niece, the mother is likely to be unaware #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:42:41 +0000
legalacademia@katcop13 do you mean like a professional photographer? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:43:42 +0000
TrickyCase.. Known abuse images without ever seeing the actual pics.. The database images can be catagorised by seriousness #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:43:42 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Agreed, then what? Have any class suits threatened the project from being launched on privacy grounds? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:43:48 +0000
katcop13@Vidocq_CC People should know what's going on. If this is how they find out, so be it! Primary concern: apprehend rapist! #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:44:17 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: @katcop13 But what if my place was used without me knowing? I still have a right to privacy, right? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:44:39 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC the only threat i can see is the govt not wanting to fund it, but yes, human rights would no doubt make an appearance #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:44:46 +0000
roserandelRT @katcop13: If/when DB of photos becomes avail to public, it will drive the child rapists to clear their backgrounds! #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:45:07 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 Be careful here for "guilt by association." If abuse took place in home from someone else who is not guilty 1/2 #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:45:50 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC would also need to be simple, free of any techie stuff Cases have shown jurors cant keep up with complex cases 1/2 #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:46:13 +0000
Bopsterrrr@TrickyCase #CCLIVECHAT Interesting concept, will definitely have a further read into it! ThanksFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:46:28 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 I can guarantee you there will be privacy issues in court that might halt such a project despite right intentions 2/2 #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:46:30 +0000
katcop13@legalacademia No ~ it's the person taking the porn shots! They will learn to clear their backgrounds if/when photos go public #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:46:40 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC and many cases fail because of this - lets keep it simple #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:46:49 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Exactly, rule #8 is I recall correctly from law school! ECHR #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:47:08 +0000
TrickyCase@legalacademia @CEOPUK Ive also suggested that if image resolutions good enough, could biometrics be used to I'd victims / perps #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:48:12 +0000
legalacademia@katcop13 i suspect they will unfortunately adapt & make it harder for identification but that would hopefully put off some?#cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:48:24 +0000
katcop13If homeowners/renters obviously have ties with child rapists, that is the paramount concern. #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:48:52 +0000
TrickyCase@LilacLounge no Sue.. Its a separate type of database #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:49:11 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase @CEOPUK potentially, if good enough. But if not clear enough and there is a reasonable doubt, jury may not conv #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:49:41 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase @CEOPUK potentially, if good enough. But if not clear enough and there is a reasonable doubt, jury may not conv #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:49:41 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 Kathleen, ANY home/structure can be use. No need to be connected to the perps. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:49:57 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 Kathleen, ANY home/structure can be use. No need to be connected to the perps. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:49:57 +0000
Bopsterrrr@katcop13 #CCLIVECHAT what would be the case if it was an uncle/niece situation where the parent(s) were unaware?Fri, 20 Apr 2012 16:50:08 +0000
Vidocq_CCYes! It is rule #8 http://t.co/NcQ80XNh #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:50:13 +0000
Vidocq_CCNo senior moment for Vids ... yet! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:50:30 +0000
roserandelRT @katcop13: If homeowners/renters obviously have ties with child rapists, that is the paramount concern. #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:50:39 +0000
katcop13@Vidocq_CC regardless ~ it's a crime scene. Would murder investigations come to a halt because of it? #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:50:49 +0000
LilacLounge@TrickyCase I didn't mean the hashset one, I meant the one that NPIA are developing or is that what you mean too?! #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:51:03 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 Yes #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:51:32 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC question: if we work out the perp we could ID the victim if perp has ltd access to children? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:51:59 +0000
katcop13@Bopsterrrr They have bigger problems, then, if this is how they discover a family member is violating their child #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:52:13 +0000
Vidocq_CC10min warning, folks. We can go into overtime but that is up to @legalacademia! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:52:14 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: @katcop13 Kathleen, ANY home/structure can be use. No need to be connected to the perps. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:52:37 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC I'm good, my rates are reasonable :) #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:52:41 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Yes, I believe by surveillance and networking you could. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:52:53 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia LOL! Ok, we continue will Vids is broke! :D #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:53:26 +0000
katcop13@roserandel I understand; if they use an abandoned warehouse, & the public can ID it ~ the location is narrowed down! #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:53:52 +0000
McGrathCarl@katcop13 @Bopsterrrr #CClivechat these crimes are often international in scope so should the solutionsFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:54:01 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC How many vigilante attacks do you think there would be? Mistaken ID? a welsh pediatrician had home attacked #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:54:03 +0000
roserandelRT @katcop13: @Vidocq_CC regardless ~ it's a crime scene. Would murder investigations come to a halt because of it? #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:54:07 +0000
Vidocq_CC#cclivechat extended through 130pm but recap later on DCC. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:54:22 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @McGrathCarl: @katcop13 @Bopsterrrr #CClivechat these crimes are often international in scope so should the solutions #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:54:41 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC in mistaken re name on brass sign! There are some real idiots out there.. #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:54:47 +0000
Vidocq_CC@McGrathCarl Agreed, excellent point so we need collaborations on all fronts: investigative and legal! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:55:10 +0000
TrickyCase@LilacLounge you could use the same structure as SCAS for the database @legalacademia suggesting. It uses keywords & descriptors #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:55:41 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia This is such a hot item I am afraid for vigilante attacks. Families of death row prisoners experience harassment #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:55:59 +0000
legalacademia@McGrathCarl @katcop13 @Bopsterrrr yes, that's a fair response. ALready @CEOPUK deal with our cousins i believe #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:56:11 +0000
LilacLounge@TrickyCase Yep this is what I was getting at :) Have built similar, but in a database format (rather than a large spreadsheet!) #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:57:33 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC (friend) &chief reporter @DarrenJEvans advises naming sex offenders is important as it ensures wrong person is not ID #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:58:20 +0000
LilacLounge@TrickyCase But it's the fields themselves I'm interested in. What info is actually recorded. Design rather than format. #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:58:44 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia (friend) &chief reporter @DarrenJEvans advises naming sex offenders as it ensures wrong person is not ID #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 16:59:18 +0000
katcop13@Vidocq_CC Vigilante is least of my concerns. Felony is occurring, vic is a child investigators should use methods to solve #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:00:03 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia @darrenjevans Darren is alas not tweeting right now. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:00:31 +0000
LilacLounge@legalacademia at what point in the process does that naming take place? At conviction? & how is it announced? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:01:06 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 That is the cop response but there are many more angles to this and those I, as a lawyer, worry about too. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:01:13 +0000
TrickyCase@LilacLounge not sure of SCAS as only seen demo. But a similar database type is used for national Footwear Reference Collection #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:01:56 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: #cclivechat extended through 130pm but recap later on DCC. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:02:13 +0000
Vidocq_CCI think the database is a good idea to pursue but it needs to take into account all angles: crime control and legal aspects. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:02:14 +0000
Vidocq_CCThere is a risk that non-perps get associated or "put on trial" in the media before the correction is made public. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:02:55 +0000
katcop13@Vidocq_CC I agree ~ but primary concern is to stop the rape & abuse of children, apprehend criminal, get child help #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:03:18 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 Agreed too but within the right legal frame work that also protects those non-involved from wrongful identification. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:05:01 +0000
legalacademia@LilacLounge Generally as soon as someone is charged - press then report it, name, address (not number) http://t.co/PsxUMNZV #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:05:43 +0000
LilacLounge#cclivechat I'll have to sign off I'm afraid. @legalacademia it's been very interesting. Hope to chat more soon :)Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:06:18 +0000
Vidocq_CCInteresting, we have a discussion going on about database design and fear for wrongful indentification or association! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:06:42 +0000
Vidocq_CC@LilacLounge Bye Sue! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:06:52 +0000
TrickyCase@legalacademia do you think there's a risk that investigators could turn into abusers? I believe there have been cases #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:06:53 +0000
katcop13@Vidocq_CC That would be worked out before arrest is made; sex offense info is confidential anyway #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:07:10 +0000
LilacLounge@trickycase @katcop13 @vidocq_cc enjoyed chatting! @Bopsterrrr very pleased to have seen you here! Have a good weekend everyone. #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:08:16 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase Excellent point, there have been cases which police have been corrupted by material. Maybe a psychological test req? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:08:31 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 I meant in the database or, if those background pics get published in media, of course. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:08:47 +0000
Vidocq_CC@TrickyCase Good and creepy question! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:09:07 +0000
TrickyCase@legalacademia would be difficult to develp and investigators may resist due to inference?? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:10:43 +0000
katcop13@TrickyCase I'd have to say highly unlikely. It's not the concern public has, i.e. w coaches, priests, Boy Scouts, etc. #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:10:58 +0000
roserandelRT @katcop13: @Vidocq_CC That would be worked out before arrest is made; sex offense info is confidential anyway #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:11:12 +0000
TrickyCase@Vidocq_CC don't know what that says about me ;) #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:11:27 +0000
Vidocq_CC@TrickyCase That you ask the right questions!!! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:12:05 +0000
Vidocq_CC@Shevvs @legalacademia Please use hashtag #cclivechat so Gary sees the tweet!Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:12:37 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase Maybe, i'm sure they would try some form of analysis, but yes, of course if identified as a candidate, stigma #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:12:50 +0000
legalacademia@Shevvs @Vidocq_CC so was I hence rape re 18+ #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:13:59 +0000
Vidocq_CC15min warning, folks! @legalacademia on databases of background child absue images to help fight child abuse! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:14:36 +0000
TrickyCase@legalacademia @Vidocq_CC must dash but thanks for an interesting #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:14:42 +0000
katcop13The vics r usually groomed by relatives/friends/close contacts, or drug addicts lending out their infants/kids for drugs #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:14:46 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase what are your thoughts? On it as a 'test'? #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:14:52 +0000
legalacademia@TrickyCase ok no prob, speak soon :) best, Gary #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:15:10 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia @Shevvs I wonder if that happens all the time, you know, across the board? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:15:11 +0000
Vidocq_CC@TrickyCase Bye Richard! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:15:24 +0000
Vidocq_CCAnyone else who was told "no" to a dissertation on sexual child abuse? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:16:40 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC @Shevvs it is generally because dataset is just not there, statistics are not well known so material limited #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:17:01 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia ok, so it is research-based and not a moral objection. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:17:54 +0000
roserandelRT @Bopsterrrr: @legalacademia @TrickyCase #CCLIVECHAT if they recognise it as their home but they are not involved?Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:19:53 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC @Shevvs I have a great book by Alisdair A. gillespie http://t.co/GjG0o6nL @RoutledgeLaw explains difficulty #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:20:05 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC @Shevvs I got the impression it was both, I was also discouraged from empirical research as sensitive area #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:21:26 +0000
Vidocq_CCFrom @shevvs "#cclivechat my lecturer said it was something many lecturers would advise as it makes people squirm." #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:21:34 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Do you have any other links or recommended literature, Gary? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:22:16 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: From @shevvs "#cclivechat my lecturer said it was something many lecturers would advise as it makes people squirm." #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:22:32 +0000
Bopsterrrr@LilacLounge @trickycase @katcop13 @vidocq_cc Pleased I came along for the experience :) Take care and speak soon! #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:22:58 +0000
legalacademia@Shevvs @Vidocq_CC @RoutledgeLaw probably - a naive researcher may click the wrong website with devastating consequences #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:23:00 +0000
roserandelRT @Vidocq_CC: @legalacademia Do you have any other links or recommended literature, Gary? #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:23:13 +0000
Vidocq_CC@Bopsterrrr Thanks, talk to you soon! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:23:43 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia I see part if protection, I do. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:24:06 +0000
Vidocq_CCI meant "is protection" #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:24:20 +0000
katcop13Thx, everyone, for a lively, informative chat. As always, thx @Vidocq_cc for hosting :-) Thx @legalacademia 4 joining today! #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:24:55 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC my page at #stretlaw click on links for news reports and definitions of sexual offences http://t.co/yrcB8YFZ #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:25:08 +0000
legalacademiathank you for contributing :) hope to chat again soon @katcop13 @Vidocq_cc #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:25:43 +0000
Vidocq_CC@katcop13 Thanks for your input, Kathleen! Bye. #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:25:50 +0000
Vidocq_CCRT @legalacademia my page at #stretlaw click on links for news reports and definitions of sexual offences http://t.co/asz6AXny #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:26:12 +0000
katcop13@Vidocq_CC YW ~ Have a relaxing weekend, all! #CClivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:26:46 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Oh yes! You are definitely on the "ask back" guest list for more chats! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:27:16 +0000
roserandelOnce again another #CCLiveChat! Thanks to everyone for imparting your knowledge on Child Abuse.Fri, 20 Apr 2012 17:27:45 +0000
Vidocq_CC@roserandel Thanks for all the RTs! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:28:34 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC thank you!! I've really enjoyed that chat and I hope people get time to read my preface as it were :) until next time #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:28:45 +0000
Vidocq_CCGary, thank you very much for a great discussion and your generous time schedule! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:29:07 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Send me the preface as an email and I will post it in the recap! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:29:41 +0000
Vidocq_CCI have to dash out now. Recap later on and yes, we will have @legalacademia back again soon! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:30:19 +0000
legalacademia@roserandel thank you for the RT's! and of course @Vidocq_CC for hosting. Time for some food and a glass of wine :) #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:30:24 +0000
legalacademiaVery welcome, anytime RT @Vidocq_CC: Gary, thank you very much for a great discussion and your generous time schedule! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:30:49 +0000
legalacademiaRT @Vidocq_CC: I have to dash out now. Recap later on and yes, we will have @legalacademia back again soon! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:31:01 +0000
Vidocq_CC@legalacademia Cheers! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:31:03 +0000
legalacademia@Vidocq_CC will do - au revoir #cclivechatFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:31:29 +0000
Vidocq_CCSigning off, folks! #CCLIVECHATFri, 20 Apr 2012 17:31:32 +0000

 

Comments

  1. Miriam Said says:

    I feel that the general public may not like the idea of a backround crime scene database for them to search and identify as they will be strongly put off by the noition that they may mistakenly be accused of either paedophillia or of having a sick and morbid fascination with the abuse of children.

    It is also true that innocent and unknowing members of a family where there is family incest and paedophillia taking place in their homes without their knowledge may stumble upon a familiar scene and take matters into their own hands or may commit suicide due to the resulting fallout from people they know and lost jobs as they will be seen in a very poor light by others.

    Perhaps this application may be of some help to those in the police forces of all countries fighting child sexual abuse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynth

    It spectacularly failed as a general tourist photograph application but I can see its use as a search tool for images where child sexual abuse is recorded either by photograph or video as not all photographs and videos of child sexual abuse are current and may have been recorded many years previous to digital media usage or computer availability and useage.

    I also feel that any imagaes of actual abuse on stills or photographs can these days be digitally removed from the image, thus saving the viewer the outline or redacting of the image of a person or persons in the photograph or video still, this would help general researchers in backround location identification without any mental harm to them occuring.

    The best way to deal with the situation may be for the victims themselves to register as a viewer of the images under controlled circumstances with the perp and victim digitally removed from the backround with no outline to ascertain where the perp and victim are in the picture or video still and just the backround for viewing.

    If it is conducted in this manner then any person randomly seeing the images would not know if they were looking at a crime/crime scene or just a picture of a room.

    There may also be some use to gaining the images from real estate vendors or estate agents of the interiors or the properties they are selling as there may be matches showing up that identify the locations of the properties where the crime/sexual abuse took place and also the bonus of giving relative timescales to the crime event.

    These are all ways the police can serve and protect…..protect the innocent and the identities of the victims and the rights of the majority.

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