Recap #cclivechat February 10, 2012
We had a very hot Cold Case Live Chat today with Andrew Wade who introduced us to fire investigations.
Amongst the many questions Andrew answered a few issues stood out. Those issues feature in many arson cases on appeal right now. As I said before, a V-pattern does not necessarily point to the fire’s origin. There are many more factors that have to be examined.
Andrew explained flashover and agreed that the heat of the fire cannot determine whether a fire was arson or accidental fire. He mentioned that petrol burns at the same temperature as wood furniture. Those mistakes (and many more) play a role in a number of cases. If you are interested in those, click on forensic arson detection for more information and cases.
If there are any more questions, please place them in the comment section below this post. I will ask Andrew to answer those questions later as well.
The verbatim text is below.
Enjoy, Vidster
| Vidocq_CC | It is noon and we have a burning hot chat for you today. Our guest is Andrew Wade. He has been a forensic scientist for 33+ yrs. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:00:21 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Andrew specialising in fires for the last 23 years investigating over 1000, many high profile cases. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:00:49 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Welcome Andrew and thank you for being our guest. Pls introduce yourself to our crew of followers! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:01:58 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @Evie_G_L I'll look for you Evie! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:02:26 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | Hi, awaiting all your questions. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:03:08 +0000 |
| karenwade2 | RT @Vidocq_CC: Andrew specialising in fires for the last 23 years investigating over 1000, many high profile cases. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:03:50 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | ok, what is the first thing you do when you arrive at a scene? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:04:14 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @karenwade2 Hi Karen, thanks for the RT! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:04:33 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensic3 Are some arsonists just too good making it impossible to identify cause? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:04:45 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @bischofield Good question, Brenda! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:05:52 +0000 |
| legalacademia | #ff @rjward2009 great guy @vidocq_cc http://t.co/X7wGH2yh can you give me the link for the #cclivechat please? (via @ffhelper) | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:05:57 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | Have a cup of tea? No, really need to look round the whole of the scene to get a feel for the scale. Take on information. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:06:25 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 Hi Andrew! Which scene sticks in your mind as the most memorable or unusual that you've attended? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:06:35 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @legalacademia Add the hashtag in your search box to see all the tweets related to the chat, Gary! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:07:31 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield How can we tell? Usually arsonists arnt that clever or bothered about it being discovered. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:07:35 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @LilacLounge Windsor Castle in 1992 the most memorable; got to meet Prince Andrew. Others stick in the mind for other reasons. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:08:39 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @firstforensic3 How do you start investigating for that difference between arson and accidental fire? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:08:43 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensic3 Forgot #cclivechat ! But you must have strong feeling it's arson but not able to prove it? | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:10:07 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | From @Evie_G_L Do you look for traces of DNA at or around the scene of a fire? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:10:25 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC Seems a simple choice but actually can be very difficult. Obvious use of flamm. liquid or multi seats can help . . #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:10:37 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | . . but even then there may be legit reasons for these "indicators" #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:11:11 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Read in paper "V-shaped pattern on wall of burned building is proof of arson. It shows where fire started." I disagree. You? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:12:38 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield Important to remember you are a scientist/fire investigator not an advocate. What can you prove is the key. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:12:41 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 How does one identify the seat of a fire? What are the visible (or other) characteristics you look / test for? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:13:11 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC Usually work in conjunction with a CSI to cover other evidence types eg footwear marks, glass, fibres at POE etc. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:14:04 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | Good point to remember though a fire scene is not just about fire investigation it can be a full crime scene. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:15:13 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensics3 How is it possible to detect cause in a total burn out? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:15:28 +0000 |
| pwmullen | @firstforensic3 Hi Andrew! I have a basic practical Q. Are home CO detectors unreliable after they've been used once? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:15:40 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 So is there often collaboration with other experts at a scene? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:15 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @pwmullen Hi Peter! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:29 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC Absolutely, it can give an indication of where a fuel load has burned i.e. a possible origin but many other factors #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:31 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @LilacLounge Many different features can help. Need to establish the where then the how. The "where" can sometimes be big! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:18:35 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Some substances produce V-burn patterns but do NOT point to origin of fire such as ordinary bathroom+cleaning supplies, right? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:18:40 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 do you ever carry out experiments away from the scene to test a particular case-related hypothesis? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:18:53 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield Yes, sometimes. Collapsed debris can protect fire patterns, flamm liquids or incendiary devices. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:19:58 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @pwmullen Hi, Dont know; Im afraid. If in doubt replace. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:21:20 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensic3 Yes, suppose the ceilng directly above start would be first to drop? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:22:22 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC V patterns just mean that something has been burning. It may be one of a number of indicators to establish the where. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:22:39 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @firstforensic3 Vpatterns have been used as sole indicators for point of origin in many arson cases now disputed on appeal. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:24:18 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @LilacLounge Yes usually. A joint Fire brigade/police/forensic examination may take place. Bring in specialists (eg electrical . #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:24:18 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | engineers) when needed. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:24:37 +0000 |
| StretLaw_co_uk | Looking forward to my #cclivechat with @Vidocq_CC 20.04.12 http://t.co/aW6YxH4R take a look, fascinating site | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:25:50 +0000 |
| legalacademia | Looking forward to my #cclivechat with @Vidocq_CC 20.04.12 http://t.co/AALu55h5 take a look, fascinating site | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:25:51 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @LilacLounge Often small scale ignition tests. We used to use Cardington for big reconstructions-sadly now closed. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:26:16 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Can sudden influx of oxygen made trail that can be mistaken for pour pattern? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:27:01 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @legalacademia Thanks, Gary! Looking forward to that as well! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:27:32 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield Yes, in theory but might depend on integrity of ceiling eg cracks and type of ceiling- plasterboard, lathe&plaster #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:28:18 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC Yes V patterns should not be looked at in isolation; part of the overall picture #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:29:28 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | RT @firstforensic3: Yes V patterns should not be looked at in isolation; part of the overall picture. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:31:16 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | Flashover fires still attract the most misunderstanding. They tend to obliterate the usual patterns. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:31:17 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | RT @firstforensic3: Flashover fires still attract the most misunderstanding. They tend to obliterate the usual patterns. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:32:01 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @firstforensic3 Can you expand on this a little further? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:32:06 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | During flashover, radiant heat from ceiling ignites materials away from the original point of ignition. Can give false image. . #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:34:59 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | . .of multiple ignition points. Ultimately, all the fire damage merges in to one making it almost impossible to find origin. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:36:06 +0000 |
| msashton_writer | @firstforensic3 ~ What is static headspace? #CClivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:17 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensic3 Are you ever involved investigating outside UK? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:28 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Wow, when did we first start to understand flashover? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:56 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @msashton_writer Hi Marguerite! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:38:18 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield I have done fires in Holland & Germany and nearly got to go to Cyprus, Pakistan and the Carribean! Still available! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:39:49 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensic3 See if I can arrange Caribbean for you! lol #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:41:42 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC Flashover recognised 20yrs ago but not always appreciated was its effects. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:41:58 +0000 |
| msashton_writer | @firstforensic3 ~ During an arson investigation, do you analyze biological evidence? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:42:03 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @bischofield I heard that! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:42:20 +0000 |
| msashton_writer | @Vidocq_CC ~ Hello! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:43:18 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @msashton_writer When sampling some debris you take the volatile vapours from the air inside the bag ("headspace") #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:43:32 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield Appreciate it! Any old island would do! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:44:55 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @firstforensic3 I heard that too! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:46:06 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @msashton_writer "Static" is when you suspend some absorbant material in the headspace. Then analyse that material. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:46:14 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @msashton_writer UK we usually use "dynamic" headspace - air sucked through an absorbant material. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:47:09 +0000 |
| bischofield | @Vidocq_CC @firstforensic3 Research purposes, you understand. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:47:32 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @bischofield @firstforensic3 Sure, research ... sure! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:48:53 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensic3 @msashton_writer Would that tell you if/what kind of accelerant was used? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:49:06 +0000 |
| msashton_writer | @firstforensic3 ~ Thank you. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:51:44 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | 10 minute warning, folks! Any burning questions? Andrew is still here! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:51:48 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield (usually!) very easy to distinguish between different ignitable liquids; petrol, diesel, paraffin, white spirit etc #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:51:58 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Why did we use to think that fire only burned downwards and not upwards? And that arson burned hotter than accidental fire? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:53:18 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | Increasingly, sniffer dogs are used to identify poss. use of flammable liquid. Great tools but they do also have "buyer beware" #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:53:49 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 @msashton_writer DNA testing of items from fire scenes is sometimes requested but heat may have damaged DNA #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:53:50 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC 1st Q- very simplified version of fire dynamics used by people without full understanding #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:56:00 +0000 |
| msashton_writer | @LilacLounge @firstforensic3 ~ Wow, thank you Sue. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:56:22 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC Q2 Heat has nothing to do with arson v accidental. Petrol burns at the same temperature as wood furniture for eg #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:57:14 +0000 |
| bischofield | @firstforensic3 Silly question but ru offered derelict property experiment on,so to speak,otherwise how do u advance knowledge? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:57:46 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Those two points were frequently used to convict people. Lost of those cases around here. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:58:44 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @bischofield Yes, occasionally. Though limitations because derelict prop may be next to occupied housing. Annoy the neighbours! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:00:24 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Last call for questions for Andrew! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:00:34 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @Vidocq_CC Ive read the cases; appalling. At least some people are fighting to put things right! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:01:22 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @bischofield @firstforensic3 mentioned Cardington in a previous tweet. See here: http://t.co/Br7iPP7g Closed now-correct Andrew? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:02:01 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Andrew, thank you so very much for answering Q after Q! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:02:02 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | I will post a recap on DCC and possible other questions can be posted in the comment section. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:02:37 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | My pleasure. Keep the questions coming. Contact through Twitter or website http://t.co/plrH5BhP #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:27 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | And last words, Andrew? Wait, that did not come out right! Well, you know what I mean, right? #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:28 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | @firstforensic3 it's been a fascinating chat today. Thank you. Been glued to my screen! :) #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:39 +0000 |
| bischofield | @Vidocq_CC @firstforensic3 Thank you so much, both of you #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:03:59 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | RT @firstforensic3: My pleasure. Keep the questions coming. Contact through Twitter or website http://t.co/5c9x56xS #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:04:25 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | RT @firstforensic3: My pleasure. Keep the questions coming. Contact through Twitter or website http://t.co/cYPhKYyc #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:04:40 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Never thank me. Thank the guests who donate their time to DCC in order to educate us in plain English! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:05:03 +0000 |
| firstforensic3 | @LilacLounge Thats the one; it was a great resource. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:05:05 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Andrew, thanks again, recap to be posted soon. Thanks all! Next chat 2/17 is an update on cold cases. #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:06:11 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | The schedule for all the themed chats is on DCC's homepage! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:06:31 +0000 |
| LilacLounge | Checking out of #cclivechat! A great weekend to all participants. Catch you all later! | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:06:34 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @LilacLounge Bye, Sue! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:07:38 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | @bischofield Bye, Brenda! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:07:55 +0000 |
| Vidocq_CC | Signing off! #cclivechat | Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:09:20 +0000 |
Categories: #CCLiveChat, Forensics
Tags: Andrew Wade, Arson Detection, Cameron Todd Willingham, Capital Punishment, Crime Scene, Evidence, Expert Testimony, Fire investigations, Forensics, Identification, Miscarriage of Justice, UK